Tim Schafer Discusses Unionization Efforts at Double Fine, the Studio Behind Psychonauts

This morning, a detailed report surfaced about the events that unfolded at Double Fine, the studio behind Psychonauts, back in May when a union petition was filed and then quickly retracted two weeks later.

As part of the investigation, I reached out to Microsoft, the Communications Workers of America, and Double Fine’s CEO, Tim Schafer, to gather their insights on the situation. The CWA provided a statement included in the report, while Xbox opted not to comment. However, Schafer agreed to an interview.

I had a nearly hour-long conversation with Schafer, diving into his thoughts on the events, his knowledge of the situation, and the reasons behind the developments. I also touched on some of the more difficult topics that arose during discussions with 15 current and former employees regarding their experiences at Double Fine in relation to unionization, as well as his responsibilities as the studio head.

Below is a nearly complete transcript of our conversation. For clarity, it has been lightly edited, preserving as much of Schafer’s original intent as possible. Some questions and answers have been omitted as they were not relevant to the final report.

Our conversation went as follows:

**Interviewer:** So, Double Fine had a union petition that was withdrawn two weeks later. When did you first learn about the union effort at Double Fine?

**Schafer:** There have always been union activists at Double Fine. They discuss it openly in our Slack, which is their right. There have been rumors for years, but when that letter was posted, I realized it was serious.

**Interviewer:** You didn’t know about it before then?

**Schafer:** I was aware of the discussions and rumors, but nothing concrete until that letter.

**Interviewer:** Did you have any prior conversations with Microsoft about it?

**Schafer:** Just the usual rumors. Microsoft has a relationship with the union that I don’t have, and I was relatively new to the CWA.

**Interviewer:** So when the notice appeared in Slack, you realized something serious was happening.

**Schafer:** Yes, I saw the letter with about 30 signatures and understood the gravity of the situation. As managers, we had to step back and not interfere. It’s the employees’ right to unionize, and we never obstructed that process.

**Interviewer:** After the Slack notice, did you discuss it with Microsoft? Did they provide any guidance?

**Schafer:** They pointed me to their labor policies, which are quite comprehensive. Microsoft has a long-standing relationship with unions and provided us with resources, but ultimately, the situation ended before we could fully engage.

**Interviewer:** So they weren’t heavily involved?

**Schafer:** They offered resources and guidelines, but the main message was to avoid interference. It was clear that we had to keep our distance, especially since many employees were unsure of their eligibility to discuss union matters.

**Interviewer:** You mentioned a labor neutrality agreement. Did Microsoft explain any of that to you?

**Schafer:** As far as I know, there wasn’t one applicable to us at that time. They have different agreements for different subsidiaries, but I wasn’t aware of any specific to Double Fine.

**Interviewer:** What are your thoughts on the mission statement presented during this time?

**Schafer:** I generally support unions. The gaming industry has a history of treating employees poorly, and I understand the need for protection. I felt the demands were reasonable, focusing on treating employees well. It seemed to me that the unionization effort was more about protecting our studio from larger corporate influences.

**Interviewer:** You gave a speech at the GDC Awards in 2019 about unions. Did you write that?

**Schafer:** Yes, I wrote my own material. I wanted to emphasize that unions are normal and should be discussed openly, but I felt constrained in my ability to talk about it.

**Interviewer:** You read a statement at a Monday meeting after the union announcement. Did you write that?

**Schafer:** It was a collaborative effort. I remember saying that regardless of the outcome, we would still be Double Fine. It was an emotional time, and I felt the weight of the situation.

**Interviewer:** How did you feel about the discussions happening in Slack regarding the union?

**Schafer:** I could see the discussions, and it was tough. There were strong feelings on both sides, and it was a challenging environment for everyone.

**Interviewer:** Did you feel you could do anything to ease the tension?

**Schafer:** I felt it was important to let eligible employees discuss among themselves. We have principles of mutual respect, and I think people cared deeply about the topic.

**Interviewer:** Were you aware of any sharp comments made in the union-specific channel?

**Schafer:** I wasn’t privy to those discussions. I know there were strong feelings, but I can’t speak to specifics.

**Interviewer:** Some employees felt that the union supporters were eroding trust. Do you think that kind of language is appropriate in a work environment?

**Schafer:** It’s a tough situation. Accusations like that can be damaging, and I think it’s important to handle such discussions carefully.

**Interviewer:** Were you in discussions with other managers about how to handle the situation?

**Schafer:** I generally reminded managers not to discuss it. There was a lot of uncertainty about who was eligible to talk, which made it difficult.

**Interviewer:** How did you feel about the overall atmosphere during that two-week period?

**Schafer:** It was a confusing time. There was a lot of fear and uncertainty, and it was challenging to navigate.

**Interviewer:** Did you have any sense of what was coming from Xbox during that time?

**Schafer:** There’s always concern about the future, but I was cautiously optimistic initially. However, as things progressed, I became more uneasy.

**Interviewer:** Did the union situation affect your feelings about the changes at Xbox?

**Schafer:** Not directly. There were general concerns, but they were separate from the union discussions.

**Interviewer:** After the layoffs, how did you feel about the severance packages?

**Schafer:** We negotiated severance to match Microsoft’s standards. It was important to us to treat our employees fairly.

**Interviewer:** What’s the current equity breakdown at Double Fine?

**Schafer:** We’re still in transition regarding equity distribution, but we plan to establish a fair system for employees once we stabilize.

**Interviewer:** Are you the sole decision-maker for hiring and firing at Double Fine?

**Schafer:** Ultimately, yes, but we have a hiring committee that makes recommendations. Layoffs are a complex process involving many factors.

**Interviewer:** Eight people signed the union withdrawal note, and all were laid off. How do you respond to that?

**Schafer:** We didn’t target anyone for layoffs. We made decisions based on who we needed to keep the studio running.

**Interviewer:** What do you say to employees who feel uncomfortable about supporting the union?

**Schafer:** I hope they see that those who supported the union and remained employed should reassure them that they can express their views without fear.

**Interviewer:** What was the messaging around the return to office?

**Schafer:** We had to adapt to the changing work environment during COVID, but I believe in the importance of in-person collaboration.

**Interviewer:** There were calls for a town hall to discuss the union. Why didn’t that happen?

**Schafer:** There were concerns about how discussions could spiral out of control, similar to past meetings.

**Interviewer:** How do you view the culture at Double Fine in light of these events?

**Schafer:** We’re a company of kind people, but we can be conflict-avoidant. We need to improve our ability to discuss difficult topics.

**Interviewer:** How do you ensure that all employees feel included and valued?

**Schafer:** It’s essential to reach out to those who may feel excluded and make them aware of their importance to the team.

**Interviewer:** Do you feel you need to work on this aspect of company culture?

**Schafer:** Absolutely. It’s crucial to bridge the gap and ensure everyone feels they can contribute to the company.

**Interviewer:** How self-aware are you of your reputation in the industry?

**Schafer:** I hope people see us as a creative studio with integrity. I strive to maintain an open and welcoming environment.

**Interviewer:** What do you think about the idea that some employees might feel they can’t voice disagreements with you?

**Schafer:** I encourage open dialogue, but I recognize that not everyone feels comfortable approaching me. It’s on me to foster that environment.

**Interviewer:** If you could change anything about your actions during the union discussions, what would it be?

**Schafer:** I think we did our best under the circumstances. I wish I had worked more on inclusivity before the situation escalated. We’re still learning and growing as a studio.